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[T][CE] Turnabout of Courage ○ 
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Bad Player wrote:
I'll wait for Blackrune to answer :3


That we should.

Bad Player wrote:
I'll try to write up eeeeeeeeeeevery little obvious thing I can think of later :P


Hey, it works for me. :P

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:10 am
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Spoiler : Assumptions :
Assumption 1: Nick isn't Hazama in disguise, who used the 35 minutes in which he "called the police" to jump through a time vortex and murder Larry

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:33 am
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Bad Player wrote:
Spoiler : Assumptions :
Assumption 1: Nick isn't Hazama in disguise, who used the 35 minutes in which he "called the police" to jump through a time vortex and murder Larry


:roll:

Really now?

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:52 am
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Well, it IS something we're assuming :P

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:53 am
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Now that I have time... Let me write out my theory of what happened.

Spoiler : :
This plot began a while back. Luke married Luna to gain control over Cool Company. However, Luna was secretly having an affair with Larry Butz. Luke somehow got wind of this and decided to act. He devised a "test of courage" for Larry to do, pretending to be Luna. As a result, he knew exactly where and when Larry would be. As a result, he made a third key, and lured Larry upstairs, where Luke was hiding. Before Larry made it up the stairs, Luke pushed him down, resulting in his death. Then, Luke took the candle and left it in the tower, to "show" that Larry was doing his trial of courage. Then, since Luke wears gloves, he opened the window, and dropped the body with the key. Leaving the candle there. While Luke attempted to escape, Peter Burg entered, and hit Luke in the head with the Bible. Then, Peter Burg ran away, and Luke ran away, and we know what happened afterwards.

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 4:59 am
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By the way...

Spoiler : trial :
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Yeah, someone did this FAR before this trial existed. Is your mind blown?

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Bad Player wrote:
Yes, that's exactly correct. The purpose of the test is to test whether you have an understanding of the material, not if you've simply memorized it and can regurgitate it. In fact, I'm sure the reason he put the 'trick questions' on the test was in order to see who understood the material and was paying attention and who was simply memorizing facts without taking the time and effort to actually understand them.


Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:03 am
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Spoiler : :
A third key? :P

I think if Larry had been pushed down the stairs, he'd have more bruises than just that one.


Just in general, I really want to know how that business report is going to factor in...


@BB: Nah. Besides, he's saying "HOLD IT!" not "OBJECTION!"

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:04 am
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kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
As a result, he made a third key, and lured Larry upstairs, where Luke was hiding.


Spoiler : :
What evidence is there to support the third key hypothesis?

Van Dine Commandment #1: The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.

(Blackrune has stated that he will follow the basic van Dine commandments in Judgment Seekers, so I'm applying it to this one too. Besides, he and van Dine have a similar mindset.)


kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Then, Luke took the candle and left it in the tower, to "show" that Larry was doing his trial of courage.


Spoiler : :
But Phoenix and Mia claim to have seen Larry's shadow.

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:23 am
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NihilisticNinja wrote:
kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
As a result, he made a third key, and lured Larry upstairs, where Luke was hiding.


Spoiler : :
What evidence is there to support the third key hypothesis?

Van Dine Commandment #1: The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.

(Blackrune has stated that he will follow the basic van Dine commandments in Judgment Seekers, so I'm applying it to this one too. Besides, he and van Dine have a similar mindset.)


kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Then, Luke took the candle and left it in the tower, to "show" that Larry was doing his trial of courage.


Spoiler : :
But Phoenix and Mia claim to have seen Larry's shadow.


Spoiler : :
Firstly, the third key is just something I was thinking about. It doesn't necessarily need to be the case. Peter Burg also claimed to hit Larry... But we know that can't be true. Plus, Luke's hair looks similar to Larry's.

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"Another thing they are trying to do is cut all the hard words out of the English language." -Simple English Wikipedia 1984 on Newspeak.

"Soccer is like chess, only without the dice." -Lukas Podolski

Q. You're a machine then?
ROGER FEDERER: No, I'm not at all.

"I didn't know that brown cheese burns so well," -Kjell Bjoern Vinje

"If you come to a fork in the road, take it." -Yogi Berra

"@Ryan_Kesler @kbieksa3 hey leave my French buddy alone.....Its not his fault....I don't understand him when he speaks French either " -@strombone1

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Random Calvin and Hobbes Comic:

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:56 am
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kwando1313 wrote:
NihilisticNinja wrote:

Spoiler : :
What evidence is there to support the third key hypothesis?

Van Dine Commandment #1: The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.

(Blackrune has stated that he will follow the basic van Dine commandments in Judgment Seekers, so I'm applying it to this one too. Besides, he and van Dine have a similar mindset.)


kwando1313 wrote:
Spoiler : :
Then, Luke took the candle and left it in the tower, to "show" that Larry was doing his trial of courage.


Spoiler : :
But Phoenix and Mia claim to have seen Larry's shadow.


Spoiler : :
Firstly, the third key is just something I was thinking about. It doesn't necessarily need to be the case. Peter Burg also claimed to hit Larry... But we know that can't be true. Plus, Luke's hair looks similar to Larry's.


Spoiler : :
Don't worry, I know. Not holding you to it or anything. But if you DID have evidence supporting a key, that would be amazing. Ok, so for sake of argument, let's say that there is a third key.

Also, there's one big problem. They were able to see that silhouette from the back of the church, or... the entire time. When did he leave the room?


Also, I'm sorry BP, I actually really want to be more specific vis-a-vis false assumptions, but I have too much respect for Blackrune to break an agreement. So... that's all you can get in that regard. There's an assumption that you (and actually I think pretty much everybody) has been making, which I thoroughly believe to be wrong. (Hell, I feel that that is too big a clue.) But keep in mind, I could be wrong. There is one big problem with my scenario, and one small thing that keeps bugging me.

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:14 am
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Okay, let's see how much I can break this down... I hope I remember everything correctly ^^'


Spoiler : :
Fact: Mia thought she saw Larry arrive at the church at 11:48 with a lit candle
Conclusion: Larry arrived at the church at 11:48 with a lit candle
(Slim possibility it was someone disguised as him >_>)

Assumption: The light Mia saw was Larry's candle.

Fact: The window was closed from the time Larry arrived at the church until the time the light went out
(iirc)

Fact: Mia saw a figure, who she believed was Larry, in the window of the tower the entire time the light was on
Conclusion: If Larry was thrown out the window, he was not thrown out at a time when the light was on

Fact: The light went out at 12:52

Fact: Mia didn't hear any screams, thuds, etc.

Fact: Larry's corpse was found at the bottom of the tower, under the window

Given Assumption: There was not enough time for someone to run down from the top of the tower when the light went out down to Larry's corpse before Mia arrived

Fact: The only objects on Larry's corpse were the key to the tower and a wristwatch

Fact: Larry's wristwatch was on the correct time

Fact: The clock in Larry's house was 10 minutes fast

Fact: The door was found locked

Fact: The only objects that seemed to have been altered recently in the tower were the chair, the candle, and the cage

Fact: The candle was found not lit

Fact: The candle was found with wax running down the sides
Deduction: The candle was previous lit
Assumption: This is the lit candle Mia had seen from outside

Fact: The window was found open

Fact: The cage was found overturned(?) on the floor

Fact: The cage was completely clean

Fact: Larry received the challenge one week ago with the key to the church

Fact: The challenge was signed 'Luna'

Fact: Love letters addressed to Luna signed Larry were found in Cool Company's CEO's office's trash bin

Fact: Larry fell from at least 7m. Any wound he had prior to the injury was located on his head

Fact: The tower is 10m high

Fact: Blood was found on Stickler's bible
Deduction: The blood belongs to the person Stickler hit

The following were heard from Stickler. It's hearsay, but most likely reliable:

Fact: There were only two known keys to the church
Assumption: There are only two keys to the church
(If there is a 3rd key, the 'locked room' becomes trivial, and the criminal becomes nearly impossible to catch since there has since been plenty of time to get rid of the 3rd key)

Fact: One key was taken several months ago by an unknown person

Fact: Stickler saw the lit window

Fact: Stickler hit somebody over the head with his bible while inside the church

Fact: The room in which this occurred was dark
Deduction: If this occurred in the tower, it was after the candle was blown out

The following were heard from Maria. I believe them to be somewhat reliable:

Fact: The challenge had set Larry greatly on edge

Fact: Larry and Edgey fought the day of the challenge. It involved Edgey denying something

Fact: After the fight, Edgey and Larry mostly remained in their rooms until they left

Fact: Edgey was packing a suitcase after the fight
Additional Information: It looked as if he was packing clothing

Fact: He left a little before 11PM

Fact: He was jumpy and nervous
Inference: He had been trying to sneak out unseen

Fact: He said he was going to 'Cool Company'

Fact: Larry left at 11:40PM, when the clock read 11:50

Fact: Larry was carrying a candle and the suitcase Edgey had been packing earlier

Fact: Maria set the clock 10 minutes fast because Edgey told her to

Fact: Larry and Luna Atmey were having an affair

Fact: Larry sent Luna love letters

The following were heard from Luna. They are not very reliable, and have therefore been marked as 'Claims':

Claim: Luna was at Cool Company all night

Claim: Edgey never went to Cool Company

Claim: Luna has never heard of or met Edgey

Claim: Luna did not send the challenge to Larry

Claim: Luke had been out all night

The following was heard from Luke. It also isn't very reliable:

Claim: Luke has never heard of or met Edgey


I don't feel like doing any logic right now, tho... if I remembered stuff wrong or forgot stuff, bring it up :P
(And also lemme know if I got any assumptions wiggled in a 'facts' xD)

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:15 am
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Wow. VERY well done. However, you forgot about the window. And replaying the investigation portion, there's something that really concerns me about this window...

Spoiler : The Window :
According to Mia and Phoenix, the window was shut, and they didn't see anybody open it until the lights went out.


There must be some sort of clue I'm missing here that can make sense of that...

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:31 am
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Doesn't

Spoiler : :
Fact: The window was closed from the time Larry arrived at the church until the time the light went out
(iirc)

(right there near the top)

cover the window? ^^'

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:33 am
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Bad Player wrote:
Doesn't

Spoiler : :
Fact: The window was closed from the time Larry arrived at the church until the time the light went out
(iirc)

(right there near the top)

cover the window? ^^'


That it does. Can't believe I missed that one.

But seriously... urgh. Didn't catch that in my first playthrough. Now everything's messed up.

EDIT: No, dangit, me, everything's fine! This HELPS your theory! Why am I being so slow tonight!? :\

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Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:35 am
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More logic:
Spoiler : :
• Burg said that he never locked a door that night
• Burg is not sure if he opened a door
• When Larry arrived at the church, he likely locked himself in
• When Mia and Phoenix came to the tower, it was locked
• Burg said that he went to the church because of a strange light in the tower
• It was dark when Burg hit Larry with the bible

• Burg said that he went to the church because of a strange light in the tower
• It was dark when Burg hit Larry with the bible
-> Three possible solutions:
1. While Burg was going to the church, the candle went out (12:52) -> Burg arrived at the tower after Larry was dead and before Mia and Phoenix went to the tower
2. Burg never walked into the tower, he hit Larry (or whoever it was) somewhere else
3. Before midnight there was another light that went out, so Burg was there much earlier

• Burg said that he never locked a door that night
• When Mia and Phoenix came to the tower, it was locked
-> If Burg was in the tower, he was not the last person to arrive there before Mia and Phoenix

• If Burg was in the tower, he was not the last person to arrive there before Mia and Phoenix
contradicts
• Burg arrived at the tower after Larry was dead and before Mia and Phoenix went to the tower
(now there are only two of the three possibilities left)

Have to go now, I'll continue after school.

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---


Verwandlung und Wandel
(Gewinner des Speed Trial Wettbewerbs)
- Verhandlung: ~2600 Frames, fertig

Kristoph Gavin: Ace Attorney
Case 1: Files of the Turnabout
- Trial former: ~2280 frames, testing stage
- Trial latter: planning stage

Wandel der Gerechtigkeit
(Gewinner des ersten deutschen Fallwettbewerbs)
- 1. Ermittlung/Intro: ~800 Frames, fertig
- 1. Ermittlung: ~1400 Frames, fertig
- Teil 3-5: In Planung

Comedy: Fälle, die die Welt nicht braucht
- Fall 1: Der sinnlose Wandel
- Fall 2: Wandel auf den Hund gekommen

Fallen for the Turnabout
(Case for the trololol case competition)
- Investigation: ~600 frames, writing stage
- Trial: planning stage


Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:58 am
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